Reframing the Work: How equity, discomfort, and change are influencing our HR practices

In the first of a series of conversations about how Museums Galleries Scotland (MGS) has been adopting anti-oppressive principles, Rosie King sits down with Helen Raggett, Senior Resources Manager, to explore how Museums Galleries Scotland is putting anti‑oppressive practice at the heart of its organisational culture.

Together, they unpack the role of equalities data in reshaping recruitment and staff support. We take a deep dive into anti‑racism training and how new behavioural competencies are helping embed anti‑oppression across all roles. And what happens when things don’t go as intended, and why developing confidence around conflict is essential for meaningful change.

This audio story updates on a previous anti-racism case study, How we recruit and support our team, created in 2023,

Rosie King 0:07

In 2023 Museums Galleries Scotland published case studies explaining what we’re doing as an organisation to address anti-racism. Since then, we’ve become a Museum Transformer through the Delivering Change Programme, where we’re working to understand how oppressive principles exist within our work and how we can dismantle that. In this series of conversations, we’ll be explaining how our anti-racist work has progressed, what we’ve learned and our next steps.

I’m Rosie King. I’m the marketing and PR officer at Museums Galleries Scotland, and I use she/her pronouns. And my visual description is, I’m a white woman with light brown hair that today is tied back. I have on a navy cardi with big buttons and little gold hoops. I’m really pleased to welcome Helen Raggett, who is senior Resources Manager at Museums Galleries Scotland. We look forward to chatting with you today, Helen and so, yeah, please introduce yourself.

Helen Raggett 1.14

Hi, Rosie, thanks. So, yeah, I’m Helen Raggett. My pronouns are she/her, and for a visual description, I’m a white woman in her 40s with curly light brown hair and glasses. Yeah, pleased to be joining you today.

Rosie King 1.28

Thanks, Helen. I think let’s get right into it. Let’s talk about equalities data to begin with. So previously, we said that we were collecting equalities data to inform our recruitment practices, ensure that all staff have access to development opportunities throughout their careers, and understand where barriers to inclusion may exist so that we can continue to make changes. So could you talk a little bit about the data we’ve been collecting and the impact that it’s had, or any changes that have come from collecting that data.

Helen Raggett 2:03

Yeah, so we’ve been running annual staff survey to collect diversity monitoring information since 2023 and that’s for our staff and for our board. And we collect information on protected characteristics, but also around areas such as caring responsibilities and socio-economic background. As an organisation which is trying to lead on how we might use different entry routes to the sector, we ask questions about qualifications as well. So the highest level of qualification that people have completed, and also if they’re currently working towards any qualifications, we’re really mindful of what we ask people to share, and that it’s personal and sensitive data, so always really clear about sort of sharing, how we will use that data and who will have access, and ensure that any way it’s used is anonymised. And it’s also really important to, sort of, think how we consider how we’ll use information in a way that can have meaningful impact.

So, we’re thinking about in terms of what the data is that we’re collecting. So actually, with an example of that is when we’re asking about, for example, disability, we ask people…we’re sort of quite clear, I suppose, that this might include someone who might not identify as having a disability, but where condition might mean they someone can experience barriers in the workplace, or adjustments are required or might be supportive. But then we also ask people to tell us about the ways in which this affects them, rather than, for example, asking about a specific condition. We’re looking to understand what barriers people might face, so that we can sort of consider where we’re making changes or adjustments which might benefit like a range of staff. So, I guess, sort of, rather than having data, for the sake of it, looking at how we might apply that. We collect voluntary equality monitoring information from recruitment applicants, and so we’ve been analysing that as well to understand who’s applying to our roles and who then gets shortlisted, and who’s ultimately successful. And we’re currently kind of looking to break this down as well, to sort of answer on how this might vary for different levels, supposed and for our sort of permanent, fixed term posts. And that’s to start sort of helping inform if there’s more changes we can consider around that, or if there’s any sort of gaps in sort of, you know, between who’s applying and who’s successful.

But I suppose one thing that has demonstrated to us is there seems to be a fairly clear link between, for example, our approach to as a disability confident employer, guaranteeing an interview to people who with a disability who meet the essential criteria, and that actually translating into a really strong link through to who’s successful in applying for roles as well. So just thinking about how initiatives like that can really support people who might otherwise experience barriers to that.

Rosie King 4:36

Thanks Helen, that’s really interesting. I’m wondering what adjustments might be made on a practical level, like that’s come out of this data?

Helen Raggett 4:47

So, for terms of staff data that we’re collecting. Things like, so actually, the disability information that I mentioned, one of the things that we asked. As well as people can, you know, select multiple ways in which the condition may affect them. And actually, something that’s come through is that quite a number of people, they might have something where their condition can affect them in a way that fluctuates over time. While we certainly encourage individuals have these conversations with their manager. And obviously it’s up to people what they disclose themselves but having that sort of information is really helpful in terms of considering our approach to, say, flexible working and understanding. How does making sure that line managers, for example, have an understanding of how flexibility might be used to support a range of people? And I think a lot of that is about understanding, actually, that like a diverse range of needs, might be appropriate to have a diverse range of like, adjustments around that. And that actually doesn’t, the fairness doesn’t necessarily mean everyone having to have exactly the same thing. So, I think it’s a really good, it just helps support that as well. I suppose that understanding.

Rosie King 5:47

Yeah, completely. Yeah, that understanding of what equity actually looks like.

Helen Raggett 5:52

Yeah.

Rosie King 5:54

So, let’s talk about anti-racism training. Because we’ve, yeah, we’ve been doing it for a little while now as an organisation, and I’ve just come back off maternity leave, so have missed the very in-depth training, anti-racism training that most of my colleagues have done through being a Museum Transformer, which is part of the Delivering Change Programme. And you’ve been developing our staff behavioural competencies, which now explicitly include anti-racism and yeah. I just would really like to hear about what have the challenges been in implementing this. I think it’s also worth saying that our organisation has grown quite a lot recently. I think, I think is it from 23 members of staff to now nearing 50?

Helen Raggett 6:46

Yeah, over the last few years? Yeah, definitely, there’s always change wherever you are, isn’t there?

Rosie King 6:53

Completely and I think, and I think it’s really important when thinking about training that, like I just said, the training is really in depth, anti-racism training, but most of my colleagues have gone through and myself and others who have come or just joined the organisation won’t have done it. So yeah, yeah. Just love to hear about challenges around implementing training into our working day but also into our behavioural competencies.

Helen Raggett 7:23

Right, yeah, so, I guess so as an organisation, we sort of consistently talk, I suppose, about anti-racism sitting with everybody. And there’s colleagues across our organisation who provide opportunities for like colleagues to engage with this. And for example, in that sort of day-to-day way. It’s regularly been a topic of like discussion and opportunities for reflection at like our fortnightly all staff meetings. In terms of the behavioural competency framework. So, we launched what we call “how we work”, which is our revised competency framework for all MGS staff, in April this year. And all staff were involved in that review. And the new framework is, yeah, it’s like, explicitly aligned to this is ongoing learning about anti-oppression work, and embeds example behaviours that support this across all of our competency areas. So certainly, I suppose, one of the things that we were looking to do is to make sure this isn’t an area that sort of sits just within what we call, you know. We’ve got a competency which is Respect, Integrity and Inclusion. And actually this, it was really important for us that demonstrating this work doesn’t just sit within that. It’s actually about, what does that look like you know, whether that’s like Collaboration or Working Towards Results, things like that.

The framework it sits at the heart of, like MGS’s performance development for staff, and also, including reward and recognition. So, it’s actually like a really important tool, those ongoing conversations and development around behaviours. So, I think as a sort of driver in terms of organisationally as well, in terms of really making sure that matches up with what we ask. You know, what we ask of staff? What do we expect behaviours to look like, and how does that then lead to being linked to reward recognition and development needs as well? So, I guess one of the challenges that you mentioned, one of the challenges wherever you are, I guess, is that everyone will be at different stages of this work and understanding. So, we always need to, like, be mindful of that. So, I guess an example of considering this when we were developing the framework was around, say, like, choices around language. So, because one of the, another aim of reviewing our framework, alongside this was making sure that the framework feels accessible and relevant for everyone. So, we’ve tried to make sure that we could describe expectation behaviours in a way that everyone can understand. But making sure that we’re not shying away from language that is very explicitly around anti-oppression, but also in a way that anybody could come in and understand how that sits within their role.

Something else that we’ve introduced in the last couple of years is that everyone should have an objective and a personal development activity related to inclusion and anti-racism. And we also do this for climate action. As well as making sure that everyone has some sort of actual action opportunity for development. It also really helps people think about it, apply changes and learning in the context of their own role. So, no matter what kind of role you do in the organisation, having that chance to have that conversation about what that looks like.

Rosie King 10:09

We’ve had quite a few new starts recently, how are those people being supported to either begin or continue that anti- oppression, that’s really tripping me up, that anti-oppression journey?

Helen Raggett 10:27

That’s a great question. And I think just coming back to what you said there earlier as well. All of our job descriptions, actually, they say “all staff are expected to champion and help deliver MGSs commitments to anti-racism and climate action”. But what that’s about is we’re really not expecting everyone to come with knowledge or experience of this. Obviously, for some roles, that is really important. But it’s not about excluding people who’ve never had the chance to like do this work before. What it’s really about is sending a clear message about the organisation that we aspire to be, expectations of staff. And we’ve definitely received positive anecdotal feedback that seeing this is attractive to people who are applying to roles. We were really fortunate to enable staff to do some quite like intensive anti-racism training earlier this year. And we’re really conscious that that’s a sort of moment in time, and that was for those staff who were employed then. So, it’s certainly one of the questions has been, “how do we make sure we can do that?” in a way where it actually might not be feasible to run one big block cohort every year. So, we are currently looking at that, and what we are currently planning, I suppose, opportunity to look at this a different way, in a slightly more sort of embedded in a more sustainable way. So, we’re looking to, so we can, sort of start embedding that, just for any new member of staff that joins, and so that we can really mainstream that as part of our ongoing development for.

Rosie King 11:48

So we’ve talked a bit about recruitment already, and I think it is important to say that you and the Resources Team have worked hard to create a recruitment process that is inclusive and it complies with and, importantly, goes beyond the Equality Act. I wonder if there’s anything more you’d like to say to the impact that this has made?

Helen Raggett 12:11

So yeah, recruitment is an area where we’ve tried to be really intentional in our approach for like, a long time, and continually review and update our recruitment process, to make it accessible and to try and encourage a broad kind of range of applicants. In terms of our process, some of the, you know, examples of things we’ve introduced, we’ve proactively offer alternative methods of application. We try to make the process really transparent as part of our recruitment materials, and we send interview questions in advance for the vast majority of posts. We’ve certainly received some positive feedback about our process in terms of some of that content and also the accessibility of kind of like engaging in it.

Something we’ve thought really carefully about over the last couple of years is where, for certain roles, it has been appropriate and beneficial to include aspects of lived experience within the person specification. It’s something we’ve thought about really carefully and kind of to sort of ensure that we stay compliant with the equality legislation, but also doing it in a way that is not requiring people to share information that could be like sensitive or traumatic. Where that’s appropriate and really helpful, it’s been an important way of recognising and valuing that lived experience alongside more traditional skills and competencies. Another element that we’ve been continuing to focus on is the importance of how we talk about MGS as an organisation and sharing information about our work and our approach that could help a broad range of people see themselves as working here. The initial focus is often on, say, like, where to advertise roles and kind of you know, in terms of you know, in terms of attracting a wide range of candidates, and that is definitely really important. But also, if an organisation presents itself in a way that’s only attractive to a narrow range of people, then lots of great candidates are just not going to apply.

Rosie King 13:53

Thanks, Helen, I think that leads really nicely onto what anti-oppression work have you got planned for 2026?

Helen Raggett 14:04

So, one of the key things is just what we’ve talked about in terms of recognising that only staff who were employed at the time of training have undergone that. So, a key priority for us is ensuring that new staff and anyone who joins in future will receive this kind of anti-racism training. A big focus for us going forward, is in the next few months, is on looking at our approach to wellbeing and to reward and recognition. And all that obviously covers a huge range of areas. I think, in terms of considering, in the context of, like, anti-oppression, it’s very much about, again, really looking at, “is there anything that we’re missing?” Any you know assumptions that are being made about like staff as you know, “is there something there for everybody?” Are we actually understanding what different people need and want and would benefit from in that space? So just making sure that our offer continues to like reflect what all staff like can benefit from. So that’ll be a cool part of that as well.

Rosie King 14:59

Thanks Helen. And it’s going to be a busy year, but there’s a few things there that I wanted to come back to. And first, which has come up a few times, is MGS being visible in what we’re doing. And I think you’ve mentioned the LGBT Charter Mark, and we’re a Disability Confident Employer. And I just, I wondered if you wanted to talk about the importance of being part of these schemes and of sometimes it’s accreditation, and sometimes it’s more being part of campaigns. We’ve just had Duo Day come up. Because it seems to me, from a Comms side of things, they’re important because they help us to situate the work we’re doing into something that’s quite public facing, and also, you’re part of a bigger thing. I’d just love to hear your thoughts on that.

Helen Raggett 15:54

Yeah, no, that’s a great question. And actually, yeah, yes, you said we just done Duo Day. We’ve also recently been included by SUSE, who are the Scottish Union for Supported Employment and in their Apt 30 campaign, which is about recognising employers who are working to be inclusive employers. And that was specific focus around using the disability employment gap as well. I think, yeah, definitely for me, I think there’s lots of reasons to get involved in these things. I’m always really clear, I think, I think understandably, there’s sometimes a bit of a feeling like that these things might be a tick box exercise. They’re good, but I think the real value is using kind of a framework like this, that kind of an established framework, to really drive your own like action. So actually creating change as a using that as a driver for change, but I really agree that I think it’s really important in terms of that visibility, to help demonstrate the kind of organisation that we are or want, you know and want to be. And I think when I was going back to talking about when we’re recruiting, for example, and this isn’t the only you know area, it’s important. But you know, if somebody doesn’t really know about MGS, but they want to apply for a job, and they looking at our website, and we can talk about these are things that we are proactively doing and using to help drive our own organisational practice. And if that gives us sort of a visibility to helping people, like, feel like, “Oh, this is the kind of place that you want to work”, and we’ll get that you could see yourself being represented. It’s like, really important. I think it is really as a sort of focal, as having a focal point to help work out how you want to prioritise action. Because I think it can feel quite I’m sure all organisations feel like this in a way, certainly an area where you both want to do everything at once, actually can be quite overwhelming to think like where to start, depending on where you’re at, organisationally or individually, and actually having working towards something very focused and specific is actually probably a really useful way to just continue to take action, I guess, and make sure that you’re moving forwards as an organisation.

Rosie King 17:53

We’ve talked a lot about what we want to be, what we are doing within this anti-oppressive space, but I wonder what happens when things go wrong, and whether it’s individuals or as an organisation, we don’t work in a way that is anti-oppressive.

Helen Raggett 18:12

It’s actually a really important question, because I think, I think anybody who’s doing this work probably recognises that that is going to happen. And if, probably, if it doesn’t happen, then you know, we’re not really doing the work. In terms of my role and like HR, certainly, as you said, I suppose sometimes it can be really clear cut, but often these things aren’t. Sometimes a part of this is about understanding separating out what might be kind of individual issues. Like normal day to day stuff that probably is just part of being a part of a workplace and where actually something might be more like symptomatic of a wider issue or recurring issue. Or it’s, yeah, there’s like frustration, for example, about kind of like or different views about how you know next steps or actions to take? It isn’t straightforward, I think so. I guess there’s a couple of things here. So, I suppose one of the things that it would be really important to say is this is something that we’re really aware of. I guess as an organisation, it’s certainly been raised by lots of staff. The more we do this is, how do we make sure that everyone’s got the like level of like skills and confidence to navigate, whether that is conflict, or learning, or mistakes. The culture that supports that but also ensures that accountability. So, our executive team are really aware of this, and I guess their position in the organisation and senior leaders have in this space. On a practical level we have this year, had our senior team and delivering change and project team have undergone some training around on something what like sort of transformative conflict looks like. And one of the outcomes of that is we’re trying to look at how we create a bit more of a structure working through when issues arise. And you know, which something that obviously we’d make sure that everyone has an awareness of, and that can feel uncomfortable, I think, because it’s from an HR perspective, always wanting to balance what sits between a formal and informal process. I think the key thing is always to be listening. You know, when somebody raises something, you know, actually, just listening and understanding what is happening, is that key, I think before leaping to conclusions, I think that’s part of this journey is moving to become an organisation where, you know, I think people, people who have been working on this stuff for longer than me, would be like, more comfortable about sort of sitting with discomfort. But as an organisation, creating ways to support that. Because it’s one thing to say it, I think, and another thing to be like, “what does that look like?” How are we still protecting staff within that? How do we, how do you actually move towards change? You know, within that as well.

Rosie King 21:01

Yeah, I think, I think that sitting with discomfort is just so important for MGS as an organisation, and it’s something like, we’re core funded by Scottish Government. We, we want to keep getting that funding. We want funding from other, other places to come in. We want; we want museums in Scotland to be flourishing. All of these things we want things always to be positive and having to sometimes step back and sit within that discomfort. That things might not be quite as we want them to be, or that we’re that we’re having to some reckoning. It’s probably been the thing I’ve really noticed is that for people who have gone through this quite intensive anti-racism training, and also the Executive team who have had this additional training in transformative conflict. I think there’s a lot more confidence in sitting with discomfort, but you’re totally right saying that there are people who have been doing this work way longer than us, who we’re learning a lot from.

Helen Raggett 22:17

Something that I’d also and I’m sure this is true of a lot of organisations. I mean, I feel really fortunate to work in an organisation where everybody, like, is really driven and wanting to do a really good job, and does do a good job, and really, you know, great people to work with. And I think it’s really important that there’s that understanding that all that in itself doesn’t mean that, like, mistakes won’t happen. I think everyone is probably wanting or trying to do the right thing. And sometimes that can also be, I suppose fear of doing the wrong thing can definitely be a barrier to change. And I guess that’s definitely where, in terms of this, skills and confidence to navigate like this, if you know, as an important part of the process, and that change of mindset, I suppose, yeah, being a really positive organisation that’s doing, you can sort of recognise both these things at the same. I think it’s certainly a case of all these things can be true at the same time. You can be working really hard and trying to do the right thing and still, like something might not be right. And actually, you need to recognise that and be accountable and you and think about what you know, what needs to change?

Rosie King 23:17

Yeah, definitely. I think, I think that word accountable is really important here. As we’re talking about working to be an anti-racist organisation, is that that means we have to be accountable to that. That brings me to my final question, which is, what does doing this work mean for you? As someone who has a lot of experience as an HR professional, I wonder, yeah, just personally, what has this brought you?

Helen Raggett 23:47

Yeah, first of all, think of myself as an HR professional, but I guess I have been for quite a long time. I guess the first thing is, I think just even that term, I do think that in, like a lot of places, they’re quite say negative views HR, or what HR is, and I totally get them. There may be many people at different organisations who have negative experiences or positive experiences, but I think it’s also very often has a certain connotation associated with it. I suppose one of my, really, my main driver in working in my role, is about being able to continue to create and develop an organisation, a workplace, that works for everybody, or as many people as possible. Work is such a big part of everybody’s life. It’s all about balance. But ultimately, we all spend a lot, you know, of time in our work. So how do we ensure that work can be a positive experience and influence for everybody, but it can be, it’s challenging to, like, make the space to think really long term about work when you’re also I think this is true for so many people. Do you know, got a lot of day to day stuff that you want to keep doing, and also really making the space to make sure thinking bit more level. Of what, you know, what this can look like. And I think that’s the challenge and the opportunity of this work is that, in a way, the work can be difficult because there’s not necessarily, like a, you know, it’s never really, like truly done. It’s like generational change and work and that can be a bit like overwhelming, that sort of fear of not getting it right, you know, can be a bit of a barrier.

Rosie King 25:15

Completely, and that there’s not a that there’s not just, like, a checklist for, like, yep, this will, this is how to build anti-oppression into your recruitment practices, of how to build it into your caring policies and stuff. But there’s, yeah, but it’s got to be flexible, and I think going back to that, like, word equity, that equity looks different for different people depending on all the things they bring as themselves.

Helen Raggett 25:52

Yeah, I’m aware also that, like, you know, I have responsibility for this area of HR, Planning and Development, in our organisation, but I’m not delivering that like for everybody day to day. And I suppose I was thinking, it’s about supporting everyone within your organisation to be able to do that. And, yeah, just continuing to listen and respond and, yeah, develop. I guess.